Transcript 0:00 Cash now, more later from Opendoor gives you cash upfront for your home, plus all the profit later. That's no chaos now, no cash left behind later. Skip the showings now, pocket extra profit later. This is so simple now. 0:15 This is so awesome later. Or sell fast now and pop the champagne later. Cash now, more later. Now available nationwide. Start your offer at opendoor.com/acast. Profits calculated after fees and costs. 0:28 Eligibility and offer price may vary. [upbeat music] Hi, everyone. My name is Boje Kolade, co-founder and president of The Future Party. And I'm Chris Sawtelle, CEO and co-founder of CrossCheck Studios. 0:45 And welcome to the Future Forecast, a podcast where we explore the intersection between business, technology and, dare I say, entertainment. That's right. [laughs] We've done the research so you don't have to. 0:57 We're here to give our opinions about news topics and have a thoughtful discussion on the shifting landscape of our culture. All right, so let's, let's dive into it. 1:07 Today we're gonna talk about Kathleen Kennedy and her unofficial title as Hollywood's AI czar, the latest on Skydance and the Hollywood Shuffle, and rage retreats, your new mental health therapy. 1:23 [laughs] Okay, you don't need to out me for being late. [laughs] That's not cool. Uh, no one asked for that. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, it's true, Chris Sawtelle was late. I was late to today's podcast. 1:35 It's not the first time, hopefully it'll be the last. Why were you late, Chris? You know what? You know what? I'm glad you asked, Boje. I'm really glad. I'm, I'm more than happy to share with you- [laughs]... 1:44 because I identify with the idea that it is not my fault. I'm in the... I, you know, I'm, I'm a, I'm a subscriber and a believer of blaming everyone else- [laughs]... for... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you, Max. 1:57 [laughs] Thank you. Thank you for that. No. Uh, actually, it's... if you know me, it's completely the... it's the complete opposite. I very much subscribe to Jocko Willink's, uh, Extreme Ownership. Mm. Yeah. 2:08 And I can hear it in my head right now as it pertains to me being late. But if you... because you asked- Mm-hmm... 2:17 the building I live in, it's one of these new fancy high-rise buildings, and it's not me trying to be like, "Ooh, look at what I- [laughs]... where I live." It's more me just saying they sell you on the dream- Yep... 2:29 of convenience and the ability to have it all encompassed. Mm-hmm. And so we got a, we got a grocery store, we got an Equinox, both of which I don't go to. We got a nice rooftop with pool and la, la, la, la, la. Yeah. 2:47 You know what we also have for our convenience? Mm. A valet. Mm. And recently the building decided to get cheap, and they chose to bring on a new valet service. 3:02 I gotta tell you, this new valet service, seems like they got their fucking asses so far up their, their head- [laughs]... so far up their ass that I feel so bad saying this. But I, I... 3:15 we used to go from an app system where you use- Yeah... Metro, you press the link, the car comes, it's ready, they're available. It was, they... this was the best valet ever. 3:26 And I have to imagine the building decided that it was too expensive, and they didn't wanna deal with it anymore, or they, they didn't, they couldn't pay the fees, and so they went for a new vendor that was cheaper. 3:38 Mm-hmm. And I gotta tell you, we can feel it because literally they've lost my car not once, not twice, not thrice. I've literally had my car lost 10 times. Wow. 3:50 I wanted to say five, but, like, that's, that, that's almost, like, undercutting how much I've... They've now been onboarded. I've gone on way too long on this rant. Yeah. 3:59 But it has gone on so much, I just wanna fucking choke them out- Well-... because I'm, I, I'm, I, I have to g- I have to literally go find my car using the Tesla app. Oh, no. 4:09 I'll, I'll honk it multiple times and go, "Here's my car, guys." And then they're like, "Oh, thank you." Another 10 minutes, they have to, like, move another car to move my car. I'm like, "Guys, just, I'll move it. 4:20 I'll... just give me the keys." Like, I- Have you talked to building management? Uh, you know what? And knowing me, what I've done is I've procrastinated and sacrificed my needs- [laughs]... 4:29 for the focus of the company and everyone else. So yes, I need to do that. I haven't done it. I have an email that's going back and forth to set time to talk with them, to talk. Yeah. Um- To talk. [laughs] Well- Yeah... 4:46 I can tell you're really angry. Dare I say- Okay... enraged. Oh, yes. [laughs] Uh- How... what would you recommend I do? What should I be doing? 4:56 Well, it's funny you should ask, as one of our topics is about rage retreats. So- Stop... this is really interesting. Apparently, anger is a growing category in wellness. 5:11 Um, uh, women are paying $95 to scream into a punching bag. Uh, another Chicago- [laughs] Um, or sorry, that, that was in Chicago. 5:23 Um, and, uh, $444,000 to beat the ground with sticks in the redwoods. Um, these sessions have wait lists. Uh, TikTok is obviously making it huge. 5:40 Um, diving in a little bit deeper, uh, one sort of rage, uh, who, uh, host, I guess they call her the spiritual fairy godmother. Her name is- Stop. Yes. 5:51 [laughs] Uh, her name is Mia Banducci, uh, known online as Mia Magic. She does, uh, the one-hour sessions in Topanga Canyon that are 444, um, 4,444, uh, thousand dollars. 6:06 Um, and, uh, it's kinda crazy. There's more examples, but I think- For clarity- Yeah... did you say $444,000 or $4,444? Thanks for, for catching that. $4,444. Okay. Either amount is too much. [laughs] Still ridiculous. 6:23 Still, still is ridiculous. Yeah. Um, and, uh, A, I thought it was interesting to hear that this is a growing category. I guess I c- I get it in a way, like I'm familiar with rage rooms. 6:36 Um, but the, the thing that I find most interesting actually here is actually tied to, um, Ari Emanuel. So Ari has his new b- book coming out, uh, it just came out, Roll the Calls. Uh, I haven't read it yet. 6:51 I read some excerpts and have been seeing all of the press and everything. Yeah. But he keeps saying that rage is essentially a good thing, and that, and that the, he feels the industry is missing rage. 7:04 And when I, you know, I think for all intents and purposes, uh, people have seen Ari, you know, as a polarizing character in the entertainment industry, made famous by, you know, Ari Gold in, in Entourage. 7:20 And really, I think the main question [laughs] I have is does he know something we don't, right? 'Cause like he, he's essentially saying rage got him to where 7:32 he is right now, and I think not necessarily in a therapeutic way, it's just like who he was. And here we have people creating a business off of being angry. Like, what does that say about our society? 7:47 Well, when I, if I may, when I hear, when I, when I, when I hear the notion that like rage got him to where he is today- Mm-hmm... I internalize that as I got to where I am because I care too much. 8:05 Mm. And I allowed my feelings to help drive me to perpetuate the outcomes that I needed to exact. Mm. 8:13 Now, I'm sure that there's, it's deeper than that, but for me, I, something that I grapple with very heavily, and I have been, not to make it about me, but- We're going to... I, caring too much. Mm-hmm. 8:26 And by m- by that I mean I'm both in the r- I, I, I am in the, I am in the client service business. Yeah. 8:32 I have clients and, uh, I also have projects and things that I see as my babies, and things that I care about creatively. And at the end of the day, as it relates to the client, the client comes first. Mm-hmm. 8:48 There's only... The client has to want to do the thing. The client has to see the vision and desire what... You know, there's only so much in our business we can do before... We, we c- you can, you can, you can what? 9:01 You can, what do they say? You can take a horse to water but you can't force it to drink. Mm. Technically could, yeah, I guess. [laughs] But it's not really a great, wonderful way to go about it. 9:11 But the point of that being is like a lotta times I str- I've really struggled. It's that idea of like, you know, picking your battles or picking your fights. Mm-hmm. 9:22 Something that I've really had to grapple with is caring too much about how we go about a strategy, or caring about how we execute something. Mm-hmm. And 9:32 I'll get frustrated or I'll get upset and being like, "You don't get it. This is how this should happen. You're..." It, it's like wanting to shake someone and say, "You're sabotaging yourself. What are you doing? 9:42 This is-" Mm-hmm. And I guess, I guess similarly in deal-making, rage and the frustration or the need to get a deal done or to not let something go, and powering through and using force 10:00 to execute is definitely something that has showcased success- Yeah... from '90s and 2000s. 10:08 But it's, it's also interesting though because a lot of the rage that serviced him, I feel like corporate America, uh, every HR h- head everywhere, right- Yep... is putting a clamp down on, right? 10:24 Like when we were coming up, there would be, I think we were on the tail end of bosses throwing their phones at people's heads. You know what I mean? And, um- Yeah. 10:34 Yeah, I get what you're s- you mean, you mean physical rage. Yes. The, you, proper physical- But, but in- Not to say altercations, but ones that is, as we know it, almost like alpha male dominated rage. Yes. Uh- Yes... 10:48 physical rage. But I, but I- Yeah... think that that is, that's essentially what I understand these retreats help manifest, right? Even the act of like screaming out loud, that, that to me is physical rage, right? 11:01 Um, the just swearing at people, right? Being brash with people. Right. Um, that to me is, is r- physical rage personified. And it's interesting in your example, um, I f- I, I, diving into kinda how I do it, for me 11:20 it's interesting. I get frustrated more with like the inner workings of a team. Yeah. Um, I don't necessarily... 11:27 And, and don't get me wrong, I will f- get frustrated in dealing with people externally, but I don't know that it's gotten to the point of like rage. You know what I mean? 11:38 Like, I feel like I get angrier when I'm dealing with like interoffice things than I do with like people out in the ether. Um, not all the time, but yeah. 11:50 Is it, is it fair to say though that, you know, we were talking about this on a, we were talking about like if someone else wanted to come out with a book, the one- Yeah... 11:58 you know, that would be named was like he who can't be mentioned, Harvey. Mm-hmm. Yep, yep. Uh, uh, being like one of the last books. Mm-hmm. Do we not think, 12:08 when we, when we talk about like rage personified and the way in which it's being articulated by way of Ari, you know, the Scott Rudin, the, it- i- it's well documented. Scott Rudin- Yep... Harvey Weinstein- Mm-hmm... 12:18 and Ari Emanuel were individuals that would channel rage to invoke fear or exact, uh, pressure to, uh- Decision-making or deal-making in their favor- Yep... or for a client's favor. Mm-hmm. 12:35 But it was socially acceptable to do so. Mm-hmm. And in today's day and age, it's not. Mm-hmm. And listeners, please, by all means, I'm not trying to suggest that like in the '90s and 2000s it was... 12:47 I'm not really trying to suggest it is socially acceptable to ever do that. At what point in time in any society was, was it and is it ever acceptable? Mm-hmm. 12:56 But perhaps these were just things that happened back then- Mm-hmm... where no one spoke out, no one r- spoke up, and it really wa- it, it was almost like, "Oh, my boss yelled at me today." Mm-hmm. 13:07 No different than when you used to watch a com, uh, you used to watch a cartoon and hear Barney Rubble- Mm-hmm... get yelled at or Fred Flintstone get yelled at by his boss, and where you'd hear, "Fred!" 13:20 Or, you know- Yeah... that, that was the whole, you know, joke about bosses yelling at you and coming down on you in a, in a, in a shitty way. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 13:27 But now I think what I'm trying to point out is that we're in this reverse counterculture of niceness. Mm-hmm. In corporate America, it's all about getting along with your colleagues, as you should. Mm-hmm. 13:38 But there's such a passive-aggressive nature- Mm-hmm... or, uh, the need to not create thrash- Mm-hmm... as you will, to where you have to be nice to everyone, bring everyone up, not be confrontational. Mm-hmm. 13:54 And so I could actually see more room or more need for a rage room because you can't express yourself in the way- Yeah... you need. I was thinking that, too. 14:03 Because of the fact that now so- society is suggesting, "Be gentle. That's your colleague. Don't piss them off. Don't cr-" You know- Yeah... no one's really speaking to each other in, in, in real... Like, no one's being, 14:18 I hate saying real- Mm-hmm... out of fear of getting caught or politically- Yeah... politically within the org, being alienated or o- ostracized. Yeah. No, I, I was thinking the exact same thing. 14:31 Um, I'm curious though, right, 'cause, um, I've been on a call with, with Ari before, um, a- as an assistant just listening to how he operates and he... 14:40 And like it's so interesting just the idea of just the alpha male dominance. And I'm just curious if there's anyone you encounter in your dealings that you feel has rage. 14:53 And you don't have to name names if you don't want to, more so do you, do you see that like, quote-unquote, "old school Rudin, Harvey, Ari" in other people still today? 15:05 Um, for those, for those not watching, I'm, I'm deeply in thought [laughs]. Deeply in thought. Deep, deep in thought. I can't say that someone comes to mind- Yeah... truly. Mm. 15:17 Uh, that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Mm-hmm. Though my encounters, I've, if any- I, I've, no, I really haven't- Yeah... dealt... I personally have not dealt with that. Yeah. 15:30 I find, I find that in a lot of the encounters that I've had to deal with, that's the last resort. Mm-hmm. Or that's the, that's the final, like the, the, the cherry on top- Yeah... 15:44 if there's been a back and forth and constant, uh, pressure cooker moment to rise to that justification. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But no, I couldn't tell you that I've, I've dealt with that- Yeah... recently. Well, uh, in a way, 15:58 in a way I feel like not only is it like internally, right, you have HR making it unacceptable, I think as a society... 16:11 When you're running a growing business, the right systems can unlock your full sales potential and make fulfilling every order effortless. 16:17 Switch to ShipStation before peak season so you're prepped and ready before the rush hits. ShipStation connects Shopify, Amazon, TikTok Shop, and over 200 more marketplaces with one platform that does it all. 16:27 You can manage orders, sync inventory, track returns, all automatically. Everything your operation needs, all in one place. 16:33 Upgrade your shipping operations to stress-proof your biggest sales days and capture every bit of potential revenue. Go to shipstation.com and use code AUDIO and get 30 days free. 16:44 I- it's, it's a, quote-unquote, "cancellable," you know- Yeah... sort of behavior, right? Uh, like Ellen being one of the biggest examples. Like, I feel like there was another recent one, right? 16:55 This idea of being mean and being mean being your downfall, [laughs] you know? But it, but, but you have Ari saying, "No, being mean is like how I got to where I am." 17:05 But I also think, I also think that employees don't wanna put up with that. Like, I, I would say the younger generation's like, "I'm just not gonna deal with you if you're gonna be, you know, an a-hole." 17:17 Well, that's, I think, let, let, let, I mean, we can... This is a great segue. Yep. But l- this, you know, what we're talking about is leadership. Yep. How do you lead? Mm-hmm. 17:30 And Sun Tzu would argue, there, there's really, there's, there's two real core variations. You only, we really only get two. Yep. You can lead by fear or admiration. And ultimately the question is... 17:45 And, and, and I think many try to find a middle ground for that. But at the end of the day, to... 17:53 I, I actually do agree with this, uh, that there really are only two variations that can properly ignite a means or a justification for someone, or for a proper call to action for those that support and follow you. 18:07 Mm-hmm. If so- people act out of fear, cool, you at least are getting them to move, but where's their loyal- where's the loyalty in that? Mm. And what do you get out of it? 18:16 Admiration, you also have to balance the sad reality that people can get comfortable. Mm-hmm. They admire you because you love them and they're chasing your love, but at that point do they also then feel comfortable? 18:29 Yeah. Uh, uh, so how do you balance- Mm-hmm... ensuring that though they admire you or they want to support your journey and your vision- If the, someone's love can only get you so far. Yeah. 18:43 And so sometimes they need to be reminded- Mm-hmm... that they still have a job to perform. Yeah. And so I don't know. Yeah, I think the, I see- Maybe I totally counter, kind of contradicted myself. 18:55 No, I think- Maybe the, the middle, middle... I think the nature of this industry is you sort of have to, in a way, lead internally and externally, kind of what I was getting at, you know? Yeah. 19:08 And, and don't get me wrong, like you're not necessarily like l- when I say lead externally, it's more sort of like represent, like how you represent yourself- Right... how you represent your business. 19:20 And I would- And it's core values, right? And it's core values. And, and I would argue to say, and I would love your thoughts, that, um, admiration 19:30 is a better carrot for the industry and how you build relationships, et cetera, et cetera. 19:38 And, you know, I think in Ari's case, again, he used fear both internally and externally, but, uh, but, but I think he, I think he had admiration from his clients, to your point. Oh. 19:51 And I think at the end of the day, it's almost like Trump, right? Like Trump theoretically has a fervent base, and he will do anything for that base. Again, I'm being theoretical 'cause I don't wanna get political. 20:03 He doesn't necessarily always do that. Right. 20:05 But that's what makes him impervious, and that's what makes people admire hi- uh, uh, going back to Ari, I think that's what made people admire Ari regardless of how he treated them. 20:17 Let's, let's pinpoint, let's, let's not get political. Yeah. Let's talk presidential. Yeah. Obama- Mm-hmm... when it came time to the marketing assets that we as, as, as US, uh, as the US base- Mm-hmm... 20:30 uh, or, or, or, uh, you know, common folk- Yep... you would always see Obama being, quote, unquote, presidential. Yes. Being level-headed- Mm-hmm... likable- Yes... 20:42 on the forefront of, uh, relatability, his ability to relate to the common man, playing basketball, talking about his wife and his, his experiences there. 20:54 Also in the moments where people would speak up, yell, and be like, "Blah, blah, blah," like, like, "I, I don't agree with what you're saying"- Yeah... in, in an open forum. Mm-hmm. 21:03 And yet being able to, I don't wanna say rise to the occasion, but, like, find common ground even with said person- Yeah... or, or, or, or get the room to love him and, and admire him. Yeah. Trump, it is ver... 21:16 The, the, whether it's intentional marketing or not, very fear-based. I will fire... It, it's, "You're fired." Yeah. 21:24 You know, "I can fire you at any point in time," or at least it was this when it was first starting out. Mm-hmm. And, and I think a lot of people voted on the idea that we needed someone to be... We needed someone that 21:37 the rest of the world would be afraid of- Mm... to protect us. Yeah. Because it felt like we needed someone to be loud, brash, and aggressive to fight, you know- Yeah... China or Russia. Yep. 21:51 [static] What do you think, I think, I think knowing, knowing that those are two polarizing characteristics for marketing, what do you think, uh, is gonna happen with Ellison and Skydance? 22:03 How do you think they're gonna execute their leadership? Yeah. So, um, great, great segue here. Um, you know, recently the deal actually closed today. 22:13 Uh, today is, uh, uh, Tuesday, October 6th, is, uh, the day the Paramount, um, uh, Warner Bros. deal closed, and now the companies are being called Skydance. 22:27 And, uh, everyone's talking about that, but I think what you've pointed out to me is the most interesting thing is, is leadership. How are they gonna now execute on the vision of the future, right? Right. 22:39 So a couple things high level, um- Wait, last- Yeah... wait, was it, sorry to interrupt, but instantaneously we, I am just reminded, we talked last week about Pam Abdy and, uh- Yeah... a- and Mike. Yep. They're out. 22:54 They're out, yep. They're out. [laughs] It's gone quick. [laughs] Um, it's gone quick. Yeah, I mean, look, so, um, even though they're out, um, Skydance is keeping some Warner staff. 23:07 Um, so some high level, uh, the big ones, um, is, uh, David has brought on a co-CEO. His name is Ynon Kreiz. Um, he's had a storied history, um, running companies high level. 23:24 Two of the big ones are Makers. He, um, uh, helped sell Makers to Disney for a ton of money. And, uh, he also was rec- most recently CEO of Mattel and helped shepherd Barbie into what it became. 23:41 And, um, he's coming in. 23:43 Ellison's gonna handle all of the tech, uh, the creative, basically the fun parts of the job while Ynon is gonna, uh, and honestly, it, the, the description is more of like a COO, but I think they're giving him the CEO title, a lot of just the operations, right? 24:00 He's gonna make the syner- the six billion in synergies a reality. Um, so I think that's the big one. Uh, you've got on streaming Casey Bloys. Uh, he, uh, is the HBO chief behind Succession and a bunch of others. 24:17 He is now going to essentially run, uh, what they're calling s- uh, Skydance DTC, uh, direct to consumer, and he's the chief content officer. Um, so he's gonna run HBO, uh, Max, and Paramount Plus. 24:32 Um, he's also gonna be working with JB Perrette, um, as, uh, chief business, he's gonna be chief business officer across TV and DTC. 24:41 On television, George Cheeks, he's from CBS, uh, he's gonna, uh, co-chair, uh, and be chief content officer of Skydance. 24:50 Uh, on the film side, um, J- Mike and, and Pam are out and now we have Dana Goldberg and Josh Greenstein, uh, who were running Paramount. They're gonna run both, uh, Paramount and Warner's for now. 25:05 Um, James Gunn and Peter Safran, they get to do their own thing at DC. Uh, and um- Which by the way, I mean, for now, that's a pretty- Yeah... good vote of confidence. I think it's smart. 25:17 I think they're doing a fine job. I know Supergirl didn't do that well in the box office, but their content is really enjoyable. 25:24 Um, Mark Thompson, uh, is going to stay as chairman and editor in chief of CNN, and those are the big moves. Now, I think what's going to be interesting... Oh, and Cindy Holland's out. She was in, she's out. 25:41 Uh, what I think is gonna be interesting is now, like, of the tens of thousands of people under those people, some of which we know, like, who's gonna stay? Who's gonna go? What does this mean? 25:53 Where are Mike and Pam gonna go? Will they run another studio? Like this- Right... what's gonna happen now overall? Or will a new studio pop up? Exactly. Exactly. Could it be them? 26:01 Like, the next six months I think are g- are actually going to be really eye-opening into the future of the industry in many ways, and it just comes down to the people. Hot take? Yep. Does YouTube start a studio? Ooh. 26:16 Ooh, that's a hot take. They did a version of it before, right? Yep. Yep. Is this a moment where they buck up and just do it? It w- it would be interesting. 26:28 I mean, the, I think they would have to embrace theatrical, you know? Um- Yeah... I think for people to, like... 'Cause e- even Netflix is embracing theatrical right now, right? Um, so I think- I mean, they do it well. 26:41 True, but I think they're just, I think they're just starting, right? Right. K-pop Demon Hunters, I believe, is gonna get, like, a, a wide release. There was another one. So, um, yeah, I, I... 26:52 But I, I, it's a good hot take. I think done right, th- there's a, there's a gap opening up in the market in a way, right? Yeah. Oh, yeah. And, and the gap isn't necessarily... 27:03 'Cause don't get me wrong, Warner Brothers and Paramount will still have their distinct brands, but it's still all under the same house and a lot of people are gonna get fired. 27:10 A lot of capable people are gonna get fired. They need jobs too. Skydance and Sky... There are articles, Skydance acknowledges that there are gonna be layoffs. Yep. Exactly. Those are gonna come through. 27:19 Have you seen the numbers for Digger? Yes. Uh, they are not great. Um, let's see here. Um- Reminder, guys, this is the Alejandro Inarritu, Tom Cruise film. So- It's a star-studded cast- Mm-hmm... 27:35 with Oscar and Golden Globe winning creatives who, again, I have not seen the movie yet, but you would think regardless of reviews, would have a huge showing given the amount of 27:52 star power and marketing- Mm-hmm... that was supported around this. So, uh, as you sort of alluded to, you think it would be huge. 28:02 It's, it opened to $8 million domestically, uh, on a budget of 125, uh, estimated between 125 to 180 million. 28:16 Um- And note, and, and just, just note, that is the recorded budget, not including marketing. And what do they say? Yep. Double the budget. [laughs] So are we talking a $300 million movie? So it's, it is a big bomb. 28:30 I think I've even read- I'm estimating upward. I'm, I'm- Yeah... I'm, I'm estimating up, but- No, you're probably not wrong. And, and, like, estimated, uh- I think it was 20, right? 28:39 It was 8 million domestic, 20- 12 to 20. Right. 12, 12 to 20- That's-... international. Yeah. I mean, look, it, it's, I've, I've read headlines that this might be, like, the biggest bomb ever, 28:52 but I don't fault, I don't fault Mike and Pam personally. I think they took risks, and that is what people wanted, right? Like, in the same vein of getting on them for Digger, we can't remember one battle after another. 29:09 Sinners, right? Which got n- both got nom- n- between the two of them, dominated the Oscars, both box office s- successes, both the same mantra. And so, you know- Wait, I would've backed that movie. Yeah. 29:24 Again, I, I didn't read the script, so I don't really know, but Alejandro Inarritu and Tom Cruise? Yes. Yes. And I'm hearing people like the movie, so it could be, it could take some time, right? 29:35 Like, Tom, if you think about it, Tom hasn't actually always done well in the box office. You got Mission Impossible, Top Gun, and what else, right? Like, but some of his stuff is good. 29:47 Like, Edge of Tomorrow didn't really do that great from what I recall initially, but, like, it's had staying power and- Yeah... I love it. That's a plug for a movie- Phenomenal movie... I love. 29:58 Um, but um, no, I think it's good to highlight Mike and Pam, and I think a smart studio would scoop them up because they have great relationships with talent, right? Yeah. And we were talking about admiration and fear. 30:09 Again, like, I don't know how they operate day to day, but they have the admiration of talent, and that is something. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Do you know anyone who, at War- Warner Bros. 30:23 or Paramount, who's scared, or are they just, like, heads down, like, whatever happens, happens? It's very heads down. Yeah. And even if you ask, no one's gonna... Uh, even if you ask- Mm-hmm... they don't, they're... 30:36 What, what are they gonna say? It's all, it's all, it's all, it's all optics. Yep. So, like, for them, it's all gonna be like, you know, it's... Uh, well, that, uh, that's not true. 30:46 And if, if, if I did know anyone that had told me, obviously I wouldn't indicate and I would, I would never, uh, share. Yeah. Um, but- Yeah, it's a little bit like... Uh, I will say this. 30:58 Some people, uh, a- a couple people that I've talked to are very forthright and forthcoming to be like, "I most likely am out." Mm-hmm. Or don't, like, like this is not- Yeah... like what am I gonna do? Yeah. 31:12 So at that point you're just kinda holding on and- Yeah... and it's like a waiting game. Mm-hmm. Others, others are like, you know, "I'm under this person. There's no way they're gonna... 31:24 They've already been told that they're gonna be untouched," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. 31:29 I will say, like, I'm fascinated by, um, trajectory and, like, how you get to the top, and I'm curious from your POV because probably I think before our time you had Eisner, Ovitz, right, this, this shuffle of, like, agency to, like, content powerhouse. 31:51 But- Yeah... 31:52 but even in just the list that I named of who's gonna be running Skydance, and I, I haven't done the histories of everyone, but to my knowledge I don't know if any of them started in the agency system, you know? 32:07 Um, I don't even know how many of them, like, started in a studio. And so I'm curious if you have any thoughts on just, like, like how would one become a studio head some- someday? 32:20 Though it, like, it just feels, it feels, like, different to sort of- That's the right word... 32:25 it feels different to what was sort of pro- I don't wanna say promised, but, like, when you first start in the mail room or you first start on a desk, i- it's, it's sort of like world is your oyster. 32:35 You will someday be running Hollywood. And don't get me wrong, there's- Yeah... levels of that. But I don't know that you go from mail room to head of Sony, you know what I mean? 32:47 Well, that, that definitely doesn't happen anymore. That, you're not seeing the target executive starting off as an intern and moving his way all the way up to- Mm-hmm... CEO anymore. Like, that's not- Yeah... 32:56 that's not real. Mm-hmm. Never say never, but, like, let's be real here, guys. [laughs] Yeah. Uh, I think, not I think, our Hollywood when it first started was built on a house of gypsies. Mm. 33:09 You know, coming together and im- and, and immigrants trying to just survive and build a name for themselves and build, you know... There was a lot of, there was a lot of land in Burbank that was available and, 33:22 uh, it was, people just saw the right opportunity to just start building. Yep. It was all based on relationships. Don't get me wrong, it's still a business built on relationships. Mm-hmm. But the tech-ification of 33:40 content- Mm-hmm... at the highest level being Amazon, Apple, Netflix, the data is so important that I would say, or at least is seen more and more as important and it's fueling other businesses. Mm-hmm. 33:56 Though you can be someone who has the right picker, and by that I mean, like, choosing who the right people to appoint or putting the right people in creative to bring something to life. Mm-hmm. 34:08 I feel anyway that, uh, or I feel anyway, and these are just my opinions, that people are looking more for a operator's guidance or a tech guru's, uh, mindset- Mm... 34:26 or operational movement. Mm-hmm. Um. Yeah. It, it- TikTok, I, I, Ti- you know, when we look at social media versus the traditional spaces. Mm-hmm. 34:36 You know, Paramount j- I don't know if you saw, Paramount just announced, Paramount Plus just announced that they were gonna roll out a, they were gonna start testing short form- Yep... dramas. Mm-hmm. 34:46 Comparable to that of, like, TikTok and YouTube. Yep. Which I just think is an indication that we're just all getting, everyone's gonna start rolling into a feed for f- like, it's like Quibi. Yeah. 34:57 It's just all Quibi-based things. Yep. And so, or Quibi-based algorithms. Mm-hmm. And so yes, Katzenberg was right, but knowing that to be the case you need someone that can be more 35:10 tech and data focused or understanding of how these platforms are built- Mm-hmm... to properly monetize them. Yeah. Or to properly run them. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's, uh, it's, it's interesting. It's an interesting note. 35:25 I do, I do agree. I mean, I think actually David Ellison's gonna lead the charge there. 35:30 I think one of his biggest focuses is technology, and I think he, he very fundamentally agrees with the, the mindset that you're saying. 35:37 And I actually don't even know any other studio executive who's proclaimed from the rooftops that technology is going to be a huge part. Maybe Josh Tomorrow at Disney. 35:47 [laughs] Speaking of technology, uh, we should probably talk about Kathleen Kennedy, who Bloomberg says is Hollywood's AI czar, and the title is unofficial. 36:01 I don't know necessarily that I, I agree with this, but, you know, we know she left Lucasfilm and, you know, since then, um, you know, actually might, might have even been while she was there, um, she- Who wrote that? 36:14 Who wrote that she's Hollywood's czar? Bloomberg, yeah. Uh, so it could've been planted by her [laughs] 'cause I don't know- Mm... that I agree, but I'll get into that. But, but she has been doing salons. 36:25 She's bringing people into a room. Um, you know, uh, she's doing things here. Uh, the reason why I pause about her being the AI czar is d- in general, more and more people are embracing AI. 36:42 I feel like at first it was like, "No," like, "Don't touch it," and now huge directors, actors, studio heads, and I, I almost wanna give the AI czar title to Ben Affleck, right, who, um, can speak- Interesting... 36:57 intelligently to AI, is a writer/actor/director, sold his AI business to Netflix. Um, and c- Is embracing AI in a big way and talking about it. 37:11 Um, he seems more prominent in my opinion than Kathleen, and neither here nor there. I think the- Yeah... point at the end of the day is everyone is embracing AI. 37:22 [laughs] Well, I g- y- you know, it's, it v- very different approaches- Mm-hmm... I, if I may. I, listen, respect to Bloomberg calling Kathleen Kennedy the AI tsar. That's kinda cool. It's the first time I'm hearing it. 37:38 Mm-hmm. Well, because you don't typically see or you don't hear about her being front and c- you haven't, we haven't, in the trades anyway, seen her being front and center of being discussed, you know. 37:50 There hasn't been coverage on her paving the way or being a part of these, you know, the guild conversations that were happening previously. Mm-hmm. Um, maybe she was in the room, but no one documented it. Mm-hmm. 38:01 I'm not trying to come for Kathleen Kennedy. I'm not questioning it. I would say, if anything, if, if there was that narrative out there, I could believe it in terms of the exposure that Kathleen's had. I mean, 38:14 you know, Lucasfilm or, like, just, just George Lucas at large, but Lucasfilm has been at the epicenter of all technology- Mm-hmm... innovation for some time. Yeah. Right? 38:31 Uh, similar to that of, uh, James Cameron, just by way of the films that Avatar have garnered and the technology that they've built. Mm-hmm. And so when you mention Ben Affleck, I'm not trying to suggest that he's not. 38:44 I think he's more of a representation of what, of, of all... He's, he's more of a face- Mm-hmm... by way of what he reps. He's, he's more of a f- creative or he literally is a creator forward-facing advocate- Mm-hmm... 38:58 for the, for it, and people are more inclined to follow him. Or at least he is a better representation in support of people like him- Mm-hmm... being writers, directors, and actors, producers. Mm-hmm. 39:11 But I think Kath- I, I think Kathleen probably has more connective tissue by way of just all the companies she's been talking to for so much, for so long. Yeah. Well, she has been 39:23 sort of building community, and through her work, you know, she's created, um, uh, this thing called the, um, uh, a document called Human Generative Workflows. 39:37 Uh, and so essentially, um, she's essentially creating a white paper on how Hollywood should embrace, you know, so on and so forth. But, um, I don't know. 39:49 I kinda feel like it's- What was the impetus of this article coming out? That's the real question. 39:53 So, um, you know, she did, she was at the, um, Bloomberg does a conference called Screen Time, uh, and it's really popular. A lot of the top executives go to it. 40:06 And so a lot of this was kinda swirling around that moment. So, you know- 'Cause she's not set up anywhere. Hold on, let me- She's just doing her thing. Right? Yeah, she's just Kathleen. 40:17 So, so there, there is one, there's- [laughs] One could say that this is that moment where you're, you're looking for a job. Yeah. 40:24 And you're getting the right article out there to position for the right person to read it and go, "Hmm." A- and it could also just be this is the next stage. This is just something that she can, she can do, you know? 40:37 Um- Yeah... and, uh, embrace now that she's not running Lucasfilm, but- I, I know I said YouTube, but, like, also would it not be crazy? I mean, how crazy would it be if we saw Anthropic or OpenAI start their own studio? 40:53 So it's funny you say that. I've always thought that, um, An- Anthropic and Op- OpenAI maybe not necessarily start a studio, but I could see them acquiring one. Yeah. 41:05 And, you know, example, Lions Gate, they're on the market right now, and they, they could easily have a tech overlord in one of those two. Um, everyone else doesn't seem so independent, unless like an A24. 41:21 And it all comes back to AI. [laughs] It all comes back AI- Hmm... and tech, but, uh- Don't drink too much coffee, guys. Might get an anxie- a panic attack. [laughs] Speaking of, I'm hearing good reviews on Artificial. 41:35 A lot of people are- Okay... are talking about it. All right. Um, so it- Speaking of budgets that were fairly expensive, from what I hear. Uh, not too much. Um- Didn't we talk about it? 41:46 I thought you reported it was, like, 100 something million. I think it was more- That's Amazon dollars? It was, no, it was 40, 40 million. Oh. Yeah, yeah. Hmm. Uh, I mean, it- Very, it's very expensive... 41:55 still expensive. [laughs] It's a very d- That's a very dear budget. [laughs] Uh, anyways, all right, cool. Good chat today. Uh, thank you everyone for listening. 42:04 Uh, let's see what happens with Skydance and Kathleen and Your Rage. And, uh, we'll catch you next week. Catch us wherever you listen to podcasts. Over and out. Peace. Peace. 42:18 [gentle music] When you're running a growing business, the right systems can unlock your full sales potential and make fulfilling every order effortless. 42:26 Switch to ShipStation before peak season so you're prepped and ready before the rush hits. ShipStation connects Shopify, Amazon, TikTok Shop, and over 200 more marketplaces with one platform that does it all. 42:36 You can manage orders, sync inventory, track returns, all automatically. 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